Queer Men's Wellness, Connection & Community with Jeremy Mikush | Rooted in Sound Podcast
Podcast Transcript: Rooted in Sound
This page contains the full transcript of the Rooted in Sound podcast conversation between Wyatt and Jeremy Mikush, one of our sound healing practitioners. Recorded at Easton Mountain, a queer retreat space, the discussion looks at what wellness really means for gay and queer men.
In this episode, Jeremy and [Host name] talk about moving from surface-level, transactional connection toward deeper intimacy and real community. Jeremy shares his experience as an artist and performer in nightclubs and festivals, his path through Radical Faerie spaces and spiritual study, and why he questions the hierarchies of looks and status that shape so much of queer culture. They also look at what Pittsburgh's smaller community has to offer.
The conversation also explores:
why physical connection alone often leaves us feeling empty
hierarchies of looks, class, and status in queer culture, and how to step out of them
finding healthy community beyond the bar scene
erotic generosity and widening the definition of intimacy
the unique strengths of building queer community in Pittsburgh
Below you can read the full transcript of the podcast episode. You can also watch the full video above.
00:00:05 Wyatt
Welcome, Jeremy. I am here at Easton Mountain, which is a queer recovery. Well, it's a, it's a queer
retreat. And the particular event that I'm at is a is a recovery retreat facilitating for men in recovery.
00:00:28 Wyatt
However, they have all kinds of content here at Easton about many different many different items.
And one of the things that is so impressive about this place is that it's been in existence from the
early nineties and has had many different men over the the time period that have really set up the
safe space for spiritual healing, for exploration. It's kind of a campground setting. It's not an old ski
lodge. It's not like the typical gay campground that you would imagine. It's
00:01:21 Wyatt
open to many things, but it's really a healthy place to be. It's it's, they don't serve alcohol, there's no
drugs on premises. There's some events in which you know, alcohol is not permitted on site. There
are other events where you can bring your own, but it's really about connection, about healing, and
about being in safe space. So I think it's appropriate for us to talk a little bit about our topic, which,
you know, is health as gay men, and what does Wellness really look like.
00:02:05 Jeremy
Yes, I know that in our previous episode, we kind of began to kind of unravel or or look at the
different facets how especially queer males, queer queer male identifying folks can find themselves
in particular challenges. So, so maybe we can do a few examples, a few focuses and within both our
journeys and our experience and sound therapy and and other mode, other modalities. Because
because we're in a community of healers and a community of
00:03:01 Jeremy
folks who have kind of transformed their priorities, that that seems like an like, like both an
interesting and a really fruitful place to go.
00:03:13 Wyatt
Yeah. Well, why don't you, why don't you start out and tell us a little bit about some of those
experiences that you've had?
00:03:20 Jeremy
Yeah, well, I can say that in the way of curiosity about spaces that are outside of what a lot of male
identifying queer folks go through. My experience has been and even continues occasionally to be as
a accompanist for a well known drag performer. And for many years we were in and out of
nightclubs all the time. So this celebratory and ephemeral scenario where you're trying to make the
most of who can I connect with? I'm, I'm, I'm in the UK or I'm, I'm in Brazil or I'm just in New York or,
or San Francisco or Wilton Manor and you got a moment to connect and then leave. But I think that
just represents almost a very distinct version of of like the greater theme of we're looking for
connection. We are. We are often unsure based on our young experiences what what feels authentic
and true to us. And as we said in the previous episode, this leads to a lot of
00:04:56 Jeremy
forming certain habits or certain kind of cycles of interaction that don't always have us feeling
connected. So I don't want to be Sir circuitous. I don't want to be vague about it. We often have
really strong desires for connection from the physical to the spiritual. But I think, and this is where in
my forties i believe there is to an extent an organic process that we find some of these things and
not be healthy as as healthy for us as we get older. Or there's just such an excess and imbalance in
the way that we are in these spaces with each other and how we treat each other that can cause
isolation or cause us to get very kind of cold and sterile and transactional with each other.
00:05:54 Wyatt
Yeah, You know, we were. I was just having this conversation with a group of five guys this morning.
And it was the idea of how the way that our culture has kind of evolved over this, this past, I'd say
century in light of just our, our belief systems within, especially in this country, is that we as gay men
are seeking connection. And what we tend to do is try to use a physical connection in order to create
other connection where, you know, on a spiritual level, sex that physical connection is typically a, a
representation or a ritual in which denotes or represents the emotional or spiritual connection. And
it seems that we are, you know, we're trying to approach it in the wrong order that we're trying to
create, you know, have this physical connection and hope that it creates something much deeper
and more meaningful. Where in reality, these deeper and meaningful connections in which we make
with individuals, you know, that that physical intimacy really should be a representation or again,
00:07:39 Wyatt
like, like that ritualistic acting out of this greater connection. And, and, and at least for some people,
you know, and everybody is a little bit different and sex means different things to different people.
But for those of us that are really seeking connection in a bigger way, I, I think that that's that little
bit of a caveat or, or the distinction between, you know, what's healthy relationships and, and what
leaves us leaving empty after a hookup.
00:08:13 Jeremy
Yeah, yeah. And as you were saying that I was kind of, I was pulling in a lot of these terms that a lot
of our culture, whether we're having these conversations on social media or whether we're having
these conversations with our communities and our friends, is that a lot of our patterns have these
these consistencies because we are part and parcel of the larger habits of saying patriarchal
hierarchy. So if we get really blunt about it, hierarchies of looks, hierarchies of class and your job,
The thing is that if you don't automatically come from high higher up on the hierarchy with just two
simple things such as attractiveness and the, the, the, the resources you have, males get very
obvious to a certain extent because this culture allows that civilization, society allows that. So as
queer folks, if we're trying to revise that within ourselves, then it's important to know where first we
continue to roll those habits out. And then what happened when we whether you know, the, the
buzzword
00:09:57 Jeremy
is disrupt. But when we interrupt or when we say these habits are working for other people because
they simply have these things that put them higher on hierarchy. What if I don't? What if hierarchy
doesn't feel natural to me? What if it's something more organic? What if it's constellated? What if
it's not this up and down thing of I feel down here and these other people are up here for some
reason, like humans, you know, and those are things on the surface as well. We get these weird
dualisms of like the feminine is more, it is more dealing with the interior. Perhaps so, depending on
your belief systems or your traditions. But as queer folks, I do deeply sense that we are meant to
interrupt and revise and transform and transmute the ways that and especially because our society
and civilization is under a lot of pressure, because these things, both for us and in the larger society
are are being found out to be very exclusive and not sustainable.
00:11:12 Wyatt
So how do you find yourself
00:11:17 Wyatt
navigating connection differently than when you were younger, when you were in that that scene?
00:11:26 Jeremy
Well, there's sort of the, the two worlds of like me being being an artist and a participant in a lot of
the, the, the clubs and the bars and then venues as an extension of that and a lot of the festivals.
And then also a radical fairy space, which is in some ways highly diverse and has become highly
diversified. So these are all the sort of like playful exploratory spaces. And then, you know, as I kind
of went down the spiritual rabbit hole throughout Graduate School, some of these things would link
up like radical, radical fairy space in their interest in like non Abrahamic faith and and paganism and
eco consciousness. So there's ways where they could kind of make make connections. And of course,
performers and artists are always seeking from all sorts of places to be inspired. But for me, as I
started both studying and experiencing more of what the truth of myself is, which again, I didn't take
a mainstream therapeutic route that is very important and for some folks are very proper and
00:12:47 Jeremy
right path. But me, my course was study, my course was dialogue, my course was support within my
little subcircles in radical fairy community. And also my best friend Justin has been very supportive
and, and we've also had moment. So if you have any of these support systems, these things canmore
naturally and organically grow. I think one of my, my most heartfelt concerns is that since twenty
twenty the increase of of isolation through technology is making in person connection feel more
strenuous and feel like there's more at stake And because of the things I've previously mentioned,
you know, we could have a conversation. Is that even someone who looks like a, like a like they've
got their whole life together. They've got all the magic of either the patriarchal hierarchy or just
they, they, they have the alphabet and charisma of the, the guy everybody wants. They're still going
through things. That's a kind of mystical life bulb going on. That's just because you look great on
social media
00:14:08 Jeremy
and you look great at a bar or, you know, you're you're strutting around a radical fairy, a gathering
looking like everybody wants you does not mean you don't have real human challenges. And I think
that's for me, like the kind of humble, the the kind of humble realizations I had about being unafraid
and not taking this hierarchy to be true. It's not true. It's a construct. We just keep on feeding it as
truth.
00:14:46 Wyatt
Yeah, You know, I found that for myself. There was
00:14:55 Wyatt
a lot of that construct that I you know, I was
00:15:03 Wyatt
ten fifteen years, ago i was my life looked very traditionally. gay I was out and about on the scene
and, and, you know, parties and, and, you know, there was a particular bar that I hung out at quite
often and had this large group of men that I had travelled with and, and hung out with. And it was
funny because there was this sense of connection. But it was always, there was always, it was
shallow. It was, it was wide, but shallow. And I found myself many times, you know, at the end of the
night, especially having after a few drinks, feeling really shitty about the night or about myself or,
you know, having a hooking up. And, and also I one of the things that I do not miss was those, those
group of guys and you know, we're talking thirty forty guys that would hang out together all the
time. They were vicious to each other, all in the name of joking around or fun. And, you know, the,
the, the things that would be said and, and you know, the just that cattiness out of the, out of pure
wanting
00:16:43 Wyatt
to be catty and thinking that it was funny.
00:16:50 Wyatt
And at times it was, but at times it went too far. And I could see people really hurting each other 's
feelings, including me. I mean, I know that there were things that I said back then that were hurtful
and, and, you know, and to be able to divorce myself from that culture. And there was, there was a
time period, you know, I, I, I quit drinking eleven years ago And so that led to a major shift and a
major push to the way that I socialize. And because of that, there was some awkward years there of
trying to figure it out. But now there's, you know, I, I found community very much like your
00:17:41 Wyatt
ferry community, the radical ferries. I, you know, I'm here at Easton. They have many different
retreats, but that constant of coming together and connecting in healthy ways and having deep,
meaningful conversations instead of just making fun of someone because their glasses are dirty or
they hold their drink a particular way or whatever it is that, you know, we used to make fun of. And
also, you know, connection and intimacy having a much wider definition where like people laying
around and holding each other on the couch and, you know, being in a cuddle puddle doesn't
necessarily mean that you're going to go off and have sex. It means, you know, just in that moment
you're having some physical connection. And even the concept of erotic generosity, you know, that
is not something that I ever heard of or even talked about in previous groups where, you know, just
because we're not necessarily physically attracted to someone doesn't mean that we can't give them
some kind of connection and
00:19:08 Wyatt
physical intimacy. That does not need to be sex. It can be, you know, much tamer might just be, you
know, an arm around them or hugging or, you know, there's workshops here in which there's
intimacy and and nakedness and touching. That also is, is, you know, not,
00:19:38 Jeremy
not that. And it's not sexual. It's it, it might be erotic and it might, it's intimate, but it's just very
different. So opening those concepts, it also has changed, you know what I find attractive. Yeah. You
know, I, I still, you know, the old types that I used to have, I would stay, I'm still very attracted to. But
I've really been able to open that definition and be able to explore connections with men that I
maybe not, I would have not explored. And, you know, those connections may not have turned
sexual. Some of them have turned sexual. And you know, but where they are today is, is these these
beautiful connections that I would have, I would have never had.
00:20:35 Jeremy
Yeah, yeah. I, I, I want to give grace to the, the realization that I easily remember in my twenties and
thirties wondering what people like who we are now what they were doing and why why they were
doing what they were doing I knew both, especially once I moved to California, that you know,
these, these middle aged guys who were going to gatherings figuring things out. Why wasn't it
working out for them? What was and the grace I mean is the grace of exhausting what you think or
want to work that will end up not working, you know, like you know, and whether exhaustive means
that there's a substance abuse or addiction issue, that's that you that someone wants to be healed
or has has no has no other way out but up. That's very real in our community or just the the, the
challenges of being a human being. We're going to deal with loss and we're going to deal with
grieving losses in very many ways. And these things change people spiritually. They change people
psychically and intellectually
00:22:10 Jeremy
and emotionally and physically. So what the catalysts are can be chosen consciously, right? We can
do it from from within and we can do it from a conscious choice. And there's also, if you want to play
the game, you can play these games and hope that what eventually starts to feel like pain
underneath the substance and the wish for a sincere connection and wish and the wishing for
dynamics that we feel will make us whole kind of show their illusion. And that's where and that's
where Wellness and spirituality and queerness to me have a unique and powerful form of alchemy
and and synergy. Because depending on how much anyone buys into sis head marriage and marriage
and mortgage and all these things that that people will do to help themselves feel regulated and
stable and have a sense of security, our world is showing that those things are not guaranteed. So
what we have is each other. What we have is, is the realness that that anyone can see, can have
support for when we make these choices
00:23:34 Jeremy
and reprioritize what is important in our lives as queer people, as people who have any kind of
seeking spiritually or metaphysically, or a healing journey to go on. Those things can be choices, or
they can be results of other things being exhausted.
00:23:58 Wyatt
Well, what I'd like to do, we, we got a very late start today because we were having some technical
difficulty. But,
00:24:10 Wyatt
you know, both you and I are part of these bigger communities that are in other parts of the country.
And maybe on our next podcast, we can start to focus on how we can bring this community in, in our
case, to Pittsburgh, or how other people can bring this sense of community to wherever they may be
or their life or their home.
00:24:36 Jeremy
Yeah, because I think in the previous episode we spoke about the sort of unique challenges of
Pittsburgh and the region. And also I think what are unique gifts and and maybe I, I just want to put
forth at least like one of the gifts is that in Pittsburgh, I have found that when I return, I find that the
authenticity and I am who I am quirky and neuro spicy. Where I've come from challenges. All of that
is much more on the surface. We don't we don't pretend and in strange ways that, you know,
sometimes I talk to my community. It's like California can be so wonderful. The coast can have so
much in the way of resources and in the way of a diversity. But because of these things that we
talked about in the beginning of the episode of the way that like urban culture and then combining
urban culture and the stress of wherever we are in our socio economic status, the the things in our
life that feel like challenges, the way that we may not feel confident. Those things can really
exponentiate in
00:25:55 Jeremy
the big cities as well. So in a smaller city like Pittsburgh, we kind of have our history. We have where
we come from, especially if we're local. And then we have the ways that we don't buy into some of
these extra complexities that can help us really get to the heart of a matter and the heart of building
community, I think in really wonderful way. So I just want to to put that out at the outset that for
Pittsburgh, we have the chance to really model our own unique processes and our own unique
expression of community and Wellness and healing in our queer circles.
00:26:47 Wyatt
Yeah, I think that sounds beautiful. Well, Jeremy, thank you for your time and it was great spending
some time with you again today. And we'll be back next week to talk a little bit more about bringing
that sense of community or bringing that connection and that intimacy here in some circles and in
some groups that will benefit both ourselves and the community.
00:27:22 Jeremy
Yes, thank you.